Improvement? Maybe?

[amae]

Haven't done this in a while. Put comic pages, starting from er..2007 (ish?) to now next to each other in a feeble attempt to see if I've improved in the past few years.










So I can definitely say that I've improved since doing Elliot/Variations on a Theme (the first picture), but it kind of gets hard to say if I've stagnated or not past that point, haha. I guess things have stopped looking as Ribon-esque shoujo as they were for the second page, but that's not saying that much. More blacks, which I think is a good thing, and more backgrounds, which is also a good thing (though I admit that I still need to get better at that...especially how to continually include backgrounds without things looking boring). Anatomy has improved slightly, but that also needs a lot of work. Drawing guidelines for characters' bodies has been a good start and I'm definitely continuing that.

I really need to stop...avoiding drawing things that make me anxious (it's a bad habit that applies not only to drawing, but to just things that make me stressed in general). I want to draw a comic that is mainly told through characters' hands as practice, but the thought is honestly so terrifying I've been putting it off, lol. Maybe I should start a bit slower...

Doing Overland has helped with my mindset when doing comics, and it's become a lot less stressful than it was before but I think I'm ready to push myself a bit more. As soon as I finish writing up stuff for Chapter 2, that's exactly what I plan to do. :)

What do you think?

Comments

[charmwitch.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's really weird, I had to disable Adblock in order to see the images! I don't have Photobucket disabled or anything. Odd!

To me, it's a bit hard to see the changes in your art style. I'm not too good with shoujo, so I'll start off the bat by saying that. I do really think you should work on drawing bodies more! :O Dynamic poses, foreshortening, these are all things that have to be well structured in order to provide a great experience through your art. I think if you know what's making you anxious, you should fight it! Fix it!　

I do like that in the more recent comics, you're giving more detail to the smaller panels! That's great, I think.

I REALLY like the backgrounds in Overland!
It's easy to tell you work well on your lineart, but sometimes I think the beauty in them is lost because the founding sketch wasn't well thought of.

In terms of your comicking, pacing might be a bit of a problem. (ALTHOUGH this is up to opinion) You seem to rush through things easily, or a few things don't appear planned out or fleshed all the way.

Oh, that's right! I wanted to ask, have you taken a life drawing class? They're amazing. I think I've really learned a lot from taking one and I honestly want to just keep retaking it because I feel it's really helpful.

Sorry if this may be a bit tl;dr and/or unwanted but I want to help as a fellow artist! Although I have a lot to learn too. :O

[maiteoida.livejournal.com]

No, please! TL;DR more, I do love it so :D

So I've never actually taken a figure drawing class, but we have some sessions at my college that I haven't been able to take advantage of yet because of timing conflicts, but I'm going to see what I can do during my last few months here, s-sob :( I know that the few times I went I liked it, but I need to do it more. In the meantime, I try to go to posemaniacs (have you heard of that site?) and work off of the 3d models there...not quite as good as real people, but practice nonetheless.

And I think that might help me with the biggest roadblock to me even trying...I just never can even THINK of a good, interesting pose to go with so I always end up doing generic ones which is okay...but it's really not helping anything. So hopefully I can practice and build upon my knowledge so I can depend on it more often. Or something.

And thanks about what you said about my pacing...I was wondering about that! My friend gave me a tip, actually, to take a notebook out and draw my thumbnails on each page so I can see how they look next to each other instead of working page-by-page...this might actually help with the way I pace things. As soon as I write up the summary for Chapter 2 of Overland I'm going to try this technique out, and I'll see how it works.

Haha, we all have a lot to learn. I need to be reminded of that every now and then, but it's not like it's a bad thing. :P

By the way...uh...do you know that you placed in the Overland contest? C-cause I meant to...uh, let you know. :D;; Let me know if you want a character to cameo in it!

[charmwitch.livejournal.com]

Oh! We use posemaniacs all the time in one of my classes because live models are so expensive for two classes. Is there a community college nearby or not? I'm taking them at a local college because... I really want to see if I want to go into art or not you know? I think it's a great site to use to help, though. The real issue here is that YOU want to learn and take the initiative to improve. That's really the biggest obstacle.

You can't think of good poses because you're afraid of drawing different things! I've become bolder and more inspired now that I'm trying different stuff. Don't hold yourself back, you'll find it's actually really fun to do wacky things!

As for the thumbnailing thing, that's usually what most artists do. You CAN'T go with the first draft of a comic most of the time. It just won't flow right. You'll want to change things around and make it better, that's the purpose of thumbnailing! Why work on a large image and then realize you don't like how it's going!??! -o-

I think your art is really pretty, but it needs foundation. It needs roots to grow. It needs structure to hold on. :>

ALSO I saw that I placed!! I didn't mention anything because I thought only the first two places got cameos or images or whatnot. I didn't want to sound greedy or anything. :>!

[maiteoida.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've always thumbnailed (I used to do the "first draft is my final draft!" think, but that really ended badly so now i tend to edit my drafts a lot, though it's usually for layout) but I've never really put thumbnails next to each other, if that makes sense. So rather than looking at the entire chapter as a whole unit, I do it piece by piece which is okay but doesn't give me a good idea about pacing. :/ Which is dumb, because that's what comics are all about lol. You'd think I would have noticed something so simple sooner, but there you go.

But yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head about the pose thing. Also, I tend to get really frustrated when I can't get things right, which makes me even more reluctant to even start. It might be a good idea to return to doing some more standalone pictures to get over this complex...with comics it's easy to get into the habit of telling yourself that it's okay to tone down interesting poses as long as you get the main point of the page across, you know?

It's been a slow process though, it's taken me this long to get even to this point, where I even DO thumbnails or (try) to outline the body. But I'll get better, definitely.

I'm glad you saw, I was afraid that you didn't...D: But yes! 3rd place gets a cameo too, so if you want one of your characters to appear (or want to create one just especially for this), please let me know :D ♥

[pinkchan.livejournal.com]

I actually prefer some of your older pages better. You use blacks more, but haven't actually balanced the blacks- whereas before I felt like you had a better handle on balance when you used more tones. Lately everyone's been trying to completely stop using tones, like it's always better to use less tones or something...it's good to learn how to do more with inks, but when you don't balance that with an eye towards whether it helps the page as a whole, it negates the positives.

As for pose creativity, maybe you could start out by looking at an artist you admire and trying to do the poses they do? Just remember not to reference the original illustration. Like take the general pose from an illustration you like and then try and recreate it by looking up the anatomy yourself. Try even mirroring it to make completely sure you're not just copying the original illustration.

And even just looking over your old pages, I see a lot of anatomy that could be improved upon...so maybe just look through your old stuff and try and redraw it with concentration on getting the anatomy right.

As for being nervous, remember that nobody really has to see what you're drawing. Don't be afraid to fail and practice the same things over and over again. I can't tell you how many of my sketchbook pages are just the same body part in the same pose over and over again because I can never get them right.

[maiteoida.livejournal.com]

Haha, I kind of like the move from the amount of tones I used to before, if only because I think it fits Overland more but I agree that I need to improve the way that I use blacks (it's a bit addicting in itself, so it's just as easy to get carried away with that as it is with tones, I guess?).

I never really thought about going back to old pages and trying to redraw more correctly...that sounds like a really good idea. I think I'm going to invest in a mirror very soon, because my current room doesn't have one where I draw so it makes it kind of difficult to reference my own body when I'm drawing like I do at home.

And while I know that no one really has to see me mess up at drawing certain things, when it comes to stuff like Overland where I do post the pages up, the anxiety tends to increase. But I think...in my case, it might be good to allow myself to mess up a bit in public so I can just get over that barrier and accept it as a necessary evil when trying to improve. It's going to be hard, though. Really hard. :/

[charmwitch.livejournal.com]

Just know, if you get anxious now, you're going to need to expose yourself especially when you become more of a published artist. You're exposed to everyone, you have to be confident and have your basic structures down for when that time comes. It is better to feel anxious but override it now than later.

It's part of the professional world. You can do it.

[pinkchan.livejournal.com]

The problem was less the tones and more the reliance on tones to fill in for details and textures that should've been done in ink. So now it's like, you're trying to do the details in ink, but no longer remembering that the tones are there as a tool you can use when appropriate? Sometimes you put blacks for the sake of using more blacks when it would've been more appropriate to use subtler textures. (Like tones or more subtle inkwork than solid washes.)

So it's like one problem for another, when the solution could be a marriage of the two.

As for performance anxiety on Overland, the whole point of a personal webcomic is you have the freedom to put things on pause as long as you need to to really get things polished if you want.

Of course, the self-imposed schedule of a regularly updated webcomic is to avoid perfectionism, but I think in your case perfectionism isn't the problem, since you're wondering what needs to be done to improve after viewing the body of work that's already been produced... so yeah, don't worry about the need to publicly perform if it's getting in the way of improvement.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if improvement is your goal, do what you gotta do to get over your fears and do that. Public or private, it doesn't matter.

I personally had to give myself permission to be private about my art... for some reason I felt like I had to 'check in' with everybody. Then I thought about it and realized that was a stupid idea. So if you're having the same problem, feel free to artistically drop dead to the world for however long. Feels good man.

[pinkchan.livejournal.com]

So rather than looking at the entire chapter as a whole unit, I do it piece by piece which is okay but doesn't give me a good idea about pacing.

WHAT.

GO READ BAKUMAN AND EDUCATE YO'SELF!!
The "name" (thumbnails of an entire chapter!!) is probably the MOST IMPORTANT PART of comicking! I forbid you from doing an entire chapter page by page ever again! MAN, no wonder the pacing of chapter 1 was so weird!

Construction (drawing the body) is the most important part of drawing, too!! I forbid you from not doing that for the next chapter, too!!

Do the next chapter of Overland with the script AND name (TWO DRAFTS AT LEAST) done before you even do the pencils! And when you do the pencils I demand you draw the body out and look up poses you don't know instead of changing the poses to those you're familiar with!

N-not trying to be harsh or discourage you here, but if you really want to improve, man! I didn't know you weren't doing this stuff, or I would've suggested it sooner!!

[maiteoida.livejournal.com]

I-I've been drawing the body! For a few years now! Don't hurt me! D: I've at least become perspective enough to do that! But it hadn't even gotten to the point where I changed poses to make them more familiar with--I never even considered doing other sorts of poses because I think I didn't want to think about it.

Anyway! I going to do all of this for Chapter 2 so it'll be much better, I swear.

Haha, I feel so embarrassed now. But also, much better.

[lanisatu.livejournal.com]

I think you're improving, but there's always room to grow. I think it can mean trouble if an artist stagnates, so it's a good thing to keep challenging yourself.

You're obviously thinking more about backgrounds now, and they definitely add to your pages. I agree with what someone else said about tones versus solid blacks. I think you need to mix them a little more, because solid black can be a bit too harsh sometimes. The floor in the page above the Overland pages (I'm sorry, I forget the name) could have used overall tone instead of blacks on the edges.

For poses, you rarely seem to take risks. One of the things that I do is sketch how I think I want the pose to look first. If it doesn't look right, then I go looking for reference. Most of the time, I end up using my webcam to make my own reference. I think it's more helpful doing the poses myself because I know how the position feels, so I know if it can actually work for the scene. It also helps with understanding the anatomy.

Life drawing classes will help you with anatomical structure, but the poses will be limited to what the model can hold for an extended period of time. You will find stock/reference photos to generally be more creative when it comes to posing. There are tons of wonderful models on DA who offer stock/reference photos. Start following them and practicing using their photos.

I think you're not considering more unusual poses and angles because you're unsure of how to structure them. Practice is the only thing that will help with that. The more you practice, the more you'll be able to do without reference.

When it comes to structuring your page, I think it's natural to think "Character X is standing like Y;" but you should also be considering angles and distance a little more. Try a few options and see what feels more interesting and still gets communicates the point you want for the panel and page.

As for thumbnailing multiple pages... I used to do that and full pencils. I really hated doing the full, detailed pencils as it felt like extra work. I only say that because I tend to re-size and reposition things a lot before settling on the final layout.

I don't often draw physical thumbnails of a few pages in a row anymore, but I definitely think about what the previous page looked like and how the current page will affect the next (so I guess I'm doing it in my head). I do draw really rough thumbnails of layouts once I've started working on individual panels, to work out sizing and pacing; I find that's a necessary step.

If thumbnailing will help you more, do it. But keep it rough, they're only for your reference.

Sorry, my comment is long again. I hope it helps though :)

[charmwitch.livejournal.com]

Life drawing classes will help you with anatomical structure, but the poses will be limited to what the model can hold for an extended period of time.

Just a thought, that's the point of the class isn't it? You're supposed to be quick and dirty, just work on the basic composition and work fast. Details are not the point of the class, so I think fast sketching and figuring where things go in a short amount of time is actually very helpful. XD

[charmwitch.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it doesn't feel like the whole body is there, it may be due to how you draw clothing, though. It's very... floppish, if that makes sense. It doesn't fall on the body like it normally should sometimes. There are times I feel the clothing has no weight on the body, and since that covers up the biggest portion of your drawings for the most part, it's very easy to get lost on where your proportions are.

Something else that seems difficult is keeping on model. Even in comics, you have to think about that! :O How spaced the eyes are, the face, the height of characters. It can be difficult when everything is calculated together.

Don't be embarrassed, it's better to know and change than to not be told and continue to be the same.

[cetriya.livejournal.com]

I think every has gone through a thing like this but I found that once it 'clicks' you cant help but whant to keep doing it!
There was a time I hated inking my stuff and would avoid at all possible but not I'm madly in love with it. Same with backgrounds, I'm findhing how its starting to click and have been really intrested in making them.

now if only mecha designs would get to me....

I've also found that taking on small comic commissions forces you to do things you thought you'd never do. for me its animals. Though now I need to work on vehicals and weapons, we'll see

[lanisatu.livejournal.com]

Of course it's helpful! I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

I'm just saying that the poses will be limited, so it's a good idea to experiment with poses from other sources too. Especially when the goal is to challenge oneself and draw more unique poses and experiment with angles.

[charmwitch.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's true. You really can't stick to one thing. As a figure artist especially, you'll have to eventually go outside and just start drawing... everyone that walks by. You need to learn how the weight of someone's body changes their movement, or their behavior. :O

I mean, obviously, in terms of comics it might not be that in detail, but it's still very good practice. A good, structured background in art really shows in a comic!

[saintsavin.livejournal.com]

You draw the most amazing eyes. They're so bright and expressive ^^.

want to draw a comic that is mainly told through characters' hands as practice, but the thought is honestly so terrifying I've been putting it off, lol. Maybe I should start a bit slower...

That sounds AWESOME. Let me get out my encouraging stick! ...wait.